Disclaimer: I log almost exclusively with a DashHawk. I tune with a Predator. I had the DashHawk before the Predator was released and I'm used to that. The DashHawk also logs/monitors most of the DCx specific (non-standard) pids where the Predator doesn't. The DashHawk has extensive (PC component) graphing capabilities where the Predator doesn't so much but the Predator does have that nifty dashboard layout with tabs and gauge displays. I've checked out the Predator logging twice now just to see what it was like. If you're going to review data logs in the car then the Predator might be better for that. The DashHawk allows you to keep multiple logs, 1/4 mile runs, and 0-60 runs on the device. The Predator only holds the last log taken. Take a new one and it overwrites the last one. The DashHawk allows preconfiguration on the PC instead of using the minimal buttons on the device. The Predator doesn't. That's not so bad since you usually don't change the parameters you're logging too often. Note: Diablo's documentation sucks. Sorry Mike, it's a great product and we all love you guys for it but the documentation sucks and it's woefully out of date. You're over the hump, the product is out the door, it's doing fairly well. It's time to get back to the documentation that you blew off in the crunch to get the product to market. Given all that this may not be complete or correct. Feel free to send or post corrections and I'll incorporate them. The intent here is to just get you started. Oh yea... the wife stole the camera again so I don't have pics of the Predator menus and displays on the tool. You will need to connect the predator to your PC if you want to review logs with the GUI and/or save them. You've probably already done this in order to deal with the tunes. If not, you're on your own, good luck (you can just review logs on the tool). I'm using: Predator version v.9r04 DataViewer version 3.1.7.2 Configuring the tool and taking a log. With the tool plugged into the car select [Diagnostics] from the main menu. Then [Real Time Data] then [Watch & Record]. I think it asks that the engine be running at this point. If it's not then start it so you can choose "groups" -- these are the menus leading to the PIDs. [Diagnostics] -> [Real Time Data] -> [Watch & Record] At this point I think you're at a menu of "groups". These are just another level of menu with the Pids grouped under them. Last time I tried the logging I was using v8r20. I recently upgraded to v9r04 and all this has been reorganized. Different names and pids grouped differently and also some PID name changes. I could have picked different names last time and I could have picked different names this time... Select a pid in a group and you get a "*" beside it and the group just like modifying parameters for a tune. Once you select your PIDs the Predator will remember them until you change them or upgrade to a different CROM version. For this example we'll log: Base spark (this is the desired spark advance) Knock retard (this is the degrees of retard due to knock detection - we want short term) Actual spark at cylinder #1 (this is the actual timing advance after being adjusted for knock, etc.) Engine RPM MPH Accelerator pedal position (in percentage? -- decimal, ranges from 0 - 1) It really doesn't matter what order you select the pids to log. Especially if you review it on the PC since you can easily change the order they are listed in. There is an option to select all pids. I believe this will (or should) slow the sample rate. Diablo recommends logging no more than eight pids at a time for decent performance/sample rate. For the above pids you would select: [Spark] -> [BASE SPARK] [Spark] -> [SPARK_CYL_1] [Knock Control] -> [KNK ST RETARD] [EPDSS] -> [RPM] [Foundation Inputs] -> [MPH] [Powertrain Controller] -> [PDL_POS_%] Once you select what you want to log you back out of that menu and you will be prompted if you want to Watch & Record Now? select [Yes] and you'll be logging. To end the log press <ESC>. I think it will log anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour and a half if not stopped before that. I only need about 13 seconds of log. Sure would be nice to have the option for multiple short logs or 1 big log. When you end a log you'll be back at the watch & record or play back options. I got a bit confused here since the sequence might be different if you just want to start another log or if you've played back the current log and want to start a new one. I think maybe sometimes it drops you into the "choose groups" menu again and you have to back out of that to get to the "watch & record now?" prompt... Somebody figure that out and let me know please. Just be ready in case you want to start a log at the beginning of an important event and find that you have a bunch more button presses to do. Log Playback on the Tool: Now you should have a log. You did remember to press <ESC> to stop the log right? At this point the log is saved on the Predator. You can just menu out and unplug it or you can review it. It will stay there until you take another log or upgrade to a different CROM version. If you want to review the log on the Predator you select [Play Back]. You'll see your selected pid names on the right and the values on the left. Since we selected 6 PIDs to log they don't all fit and you'll have to scroll down to see the last one(s). To play the log use the arrow and enter buttons. Press the ">" button or maybe the Enter button and it plays. Press ">" and it will play faster. It's all pretty obvious. Enter to pause, Enter to resume again, etc. I think <ESC> gets you out. If you're tuning and adjusting this is very handy. Like adding fuel a little bit at a time to get the knock retard down where you want it. If you need to really look at it and think about it to figure something out then you're going to want to take it to your PC. Log Playback on the PC: Connect the Predator to the PC. If you haven't installed the DataViewer program do so now (you can get it from the DiabloSport website). Run the DataViewer program. This is not bad since there is an "Info" tab that tells you what to do. Click on the toolbar thingie to download a log from the Predator. It looks like this: Once you load a log it defaults to a graph. The pids you selected to log are listed in the panel on the left. As you select pids with the check boxes it will add them to the graph. It also adds them to the top pane. This is where you see the values for wherever the cursor (vertical bar) is in the graph. You play the log, move the cursor by dragging it or use the arrow keys to move it. The order PIDs are listed in the top pane (and in the graph area) is the order you selected them. Want to move them? Uncheck a PID, re-check it and it moves to the bottom of the list. It should look like this: This whole layout is called a "Dashboard". Note there are tabs at the top. You can add tabs (and rename them) or delete tabs from the dashboard. Tabs can be a graph view or a gauge view. We'll get to a gauge tab in a minute. Each tab you set up can be configured differently. You can save and have multiple dashboards if you want them. A dashboard can be used to view different log files. So after you spend all that time configuring tabs and everything in them you can save it and use it the next time you go logging the same or similar stuff. I added a second tab and renamed it in which I just selected some of the pids. It looks like this: Now I added a Gauge tab. It defaults to analog gauges for each PID. Select a PID and it adds a gauge. You can resize the gauges. You can right click on a gauge and change the type of gauge, whether the min and max values in the log for that PID are shown on the gauge, colors and I assume other stuff. It looks like this: Here is the last tab I added with some other gauge types. It looks like this: Followup: If someone gets inspired, what would be really nice is a menu map for logging. Short description explaining each PID would be really really nice. Here is an example someone did for 8r17. Unfortunately the menus and pids have changed a lot between then and 9r04. It looks like this: http://www.xeryder.com/predator/Predator_v.8r17_MenuMap.xls
Dave, that is awesome my friend. Chris had asked me to make a step by step of this for him...but I knew that YOU would make it something that people could and would want to follow. I know a lot of work went into that and I'm sure people will appreciate it. Thanks buddy!
Dave - I'm really glad someone made this into a sticky. Chris (Legmaker) asked me via pm to explain the process to him. That's when I asked you because I knew you would develop a superior product than I could. Thanks for the time invested!!!
HOOOLY CRAP!!!!! dave, you are a god!!!!! i love you man!!! i had no clue that the pred was capable of doing this much in regards to data logging!!! now if i could only igure out how to access this info and do something useful with it!!!
Chris - hook up the Predator to the car. Go to "diagnostics" and follow the instructions and go back and hook it up to the computer. I did a WOT run starting in second until it shifted into third.
All you have to do is pick your PIDs to log Chris. I didn't pick those pids in the example at random :grin:. You probably have a good idea of about where your coolant temp is for a log. You might add IAT temp to the above and try that.
ok, dumb questions.... what does PID mean??? what are the most appropriate ones to log??? does it matter what gear to log and for how long???? if i hit the "log" button but i have to stop in traffic, is this ok???? i am most interested in a/f , knock retard, spark advance. what else would be prudent to know. i want to make sure my tune is at its best. dave at B&G will tweak as needed, just need the proper info!!! i can't tell you how much of a help this is dave!! i owe you buddy!!!
I went through and clicked EVERY one. Be careful though when you do it because the LAST one you click asks if you want to delete everything....so pay attention at the end. Find a place and stop.....start in second gear and hit record....go WOT and cruise until you shift to third. I did it a couple times without hitting stop recording.
Put the car in second from a stop or a roll....put as much pressure as you little feet can muster on the pedal on the right....that should be what is considered WOT. LOL
no shit sherlock!!!! lol i was just a little confused with the wot AND cruising all in second gear!!! hahahahahahaha for me, 2nd does not last too long during wot!!! dahahahahaha
whatever tool. If you start a zero mph's and shift into second from a stop...and go WOT until third....it takes long enough.
A PID is a Parameter IDentification. It's just something that can be logged. If you looked up the OBDII protocol specification you might find something like ENGINE RPM - PID = 32373. The tool or whatever puts a formatted message on the bus that has something like To = [PCM's ID] From = [Predator's ID] Msg Type = query PID = 32373 PCM picks it up and generates a response msg type to the Predator with the current rpm value. (I love you guys. I get so many opportunities to dazzle with BS :friends If you're logging for someone to remotely tweak your tune then include (with the above) Coolant temperature, Intake air temperature, and MAP? if they have it. I wouldn't do too much more than that as supposedly the sample rate starts to slow down as you add more pids. Then again you could just ask Dave, he'd know exactly what he wants to look at. OBDII is over a shared bus. That means everybody talks over the same wire. HAL has some real business to conduct over the bus like the PCM talking to the TCM and all the sensors etc. So you don't want your tool flooding it with traffic asking for information. PCM also has to process the requests and respond chewing up processing power there. Bus users are supposed to be "good citizens" and keep their bus usage reasonable. I believe the Predator does that by polling slower and slower as you add information to be retrieved. Probably trys to keep it's bus utilization under 2% or something like that. You don't need to worry about it. What you do need to know is that if you log everything in the world then you might only get samples every 0.5 seconds instead of every 0.05 seconds or something like that.
A quarter mile run would probably be ideal. If you can't do that then a standing start up to whatever you can do, at least into third. You can log as long as it goes. Diablo implies that with logging ALL parameters you might get something like 45 minutes of log? With logging like eight or less parameters you might get 90 minutes of log. The thing is that the longer you log the harder it is to find what you're looking for in there. Your tuner would thank you for a bunch of short logs instead of one huge one. I don't know if you can download a log to a laptop in the car? It would depend if you can power the Predator from the OBDII port and still plug the serial cable in at the same time. I think you can do that? Then you could take a log, download it to the laptop, take another log, etc.
Yea. Add something so you can see the "load" as well. Like throttle blade position or pedal position. Like I said above for Chris, If you're emailing it to someone then temps can/will effect timing (mainly). If you're logging for yourself or posting here then you pretty much know what the engine temp was and maybe your intake air temp. P.S. If you want to try all the pids at once I think there is a selection at the bottom of the "group" list to "select all pids" or something like that. So... while you were stepping through there you didn't happen to jot them down did you? You know, something like GROUP name ....Parameter name ....Parameter name .... GROUP name ... etc. So we could get a menu map?
Oh yea, AFR... It was never clear what that is on the Predator. I remember some people logging that on very early versions and I didn't notice if it's even still in there now. You can't get useful AFR information from a narrowband sensor except for the range from about 14.5:1 to about 15.5:1. At around 14.5:1 a narrowband will be outputting about 0v. At around 15.5:1 a narrowband will be outputting about 1v. (maybe it's the other way around with 1v rich and 0v lean?) At 14.7:1 a narrowband outputs 0.5v. You don't want to see any of that at WOT and your narrowband should just be pegged rich. So what is the Predator logging for AFR? Maybe they calculate what the "commanded" afr is? not sure how they would do that either without looking into the tables in the tune. I guess they have that information available. Maybe cars that come with a wideband report that?
